Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 21: Do we really know what democracy is? 鈥� with Astra Taylor
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Maria Cecilia Saba, Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, Rachel Wong, Am Johal, Astra Taylor
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Melissa Roach 0:07
You鈥檙e listening to Below the Radar, a knowledge mobilization project recorded out of 312 Main. This podcast is produced by 大象传媒鈥檚 Vancity Office of Community Engagement.
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:17
Below the Radar brings forward ideas to encourage meaningful exchanges across communities.
Jamie-Leigh Gonzales 0:21
Each episode we interview guests on topics ranging from environmental and social justice, arts, culture, community building, and urban issues. This podcast is recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
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Rachel Wong 0:44
Hi, I鈥檓 Rachel Wong, and today on the show we are joined by , the director behind the film The film tackles a seemingly simple question, but as it goes on, we quickly learn that democracy is so much more than everyone getting a vote. Astra is a writer, filmmaker, and political organizer who has also written a book on the same theme, titled, . The book is out now from Metropolitan Books. Our host Am Johal sits down with Astra to take a deep dive into understanding what democracy is and who gets to participate in it, realizing that this is an ongoing conversation that must be had.
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Am Johal 1:36
Welcome to Below the Radar, this is Am Johal. We鈥檙e delighted to have Astra Taylor with us this evening for the episode and I鈥檓 also joined by Maria Cecilia Saba, who works here at 大象传媒 with me. We鈥檙e gonna be screening What is Democracy? this evening at 大象传媒, I鈥檓 going to read just a little bit of the description: 鈥淐oming at a moment of profound political and social crisis, What Is Democracy? reflects on a world we too often take for granted. What does it mean for the people to rule鈥攁nd is that something we even want? Director Astra Taylor鈥檚 idiosyncratic, philosophical journey takes us from ancient Athens鈥� groundbreaking experiment in self-government to capitalism鈥檚 roots in medieval Italy; from modern-day Greece grappling with financial collapse and a mounting refugee crisis to the United States reckoning with its racist past and the growing gap between rich and poor.鈥�
Am Johal 2:32
She walks through with theorists , , , and and others, and in this particular moment of rising populisms, right wing populisms, and challenges to human rights in various places and authoritarian figures, this is such an important topic to be taking up, and I鈥檓 wondering where you, first of all, started with this idea to begin this project?
Astra Taylor 3:00
There鈥檚 different stories about how I began it, I mean, the seeds of it are definitely in 2011. And so it鈥檚 quite interesting, the timing of the film, because once it was finished, everyone was like 鈥淥h my god, this film is so timely!鈥� But that wasn鈥檛 sort of the reaction I was getting when I was beginning it, beyond the National Film Board of Canada which sort of enthusiastically signed on. I think the film was greenlit at the end of 2014. When I told most people that year that I was going to write a book and make a film about democracy, they were like 鈥淲ell that sounds like a civics class that I don鈥檛 want to take!鈥� But I was still thinking about 2011, and what happened in 2011? There was this wave of mobilization from the to the sort of movement of the squares in Europe, in South America. I was part of in the US, I mean in 2012 there was 鈥� there was like this resurgence of political energy that had been so absent. And many of these movements 鈥� the vast majority of them, if not all of them 鈥� were united around a call for real democracy, and this is what you would hear, real democracy. And the sentiment was, you know, whatever we have 鈥� whether that is an autocratic regime or European social democracy or liberal democracy, which is supposedly the apex of 鈥� this isn鈥檛 democracy, right? So this word was ringing out and ringing in my mind, and it was an interesting word. My reaction was not 100% enthusiastic, because I came of age in the aughts. I spent my twenties against the backdrop against the neverending war, the war that, you know, we just had the 16th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. And people like George W. Bush saying 鈥淚鈥檓 bringing democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan鈥�, so for me democracy was actually this troubled word. It wasn鈥檛 a word that I just felt, it was a word I felt was sort of empty and patriotic and problematic, and yet I knew sort of, I knew intellectually that it had a deeper meaning.
Astra Taylor 5:10
But, I think that when I began the film, I wanted to get back to philosophical basics, I wanted to think about the film, but I was also open to coming to other words. You know, there are lots of other words that did inspire me, and still do, like revolution and socialism and liberation and emancipation and equality and freedom, you know. But yeah, the word democracy was something that I just felt that I really had to seriously think through. And you know, the movie is also really informed by my work as an activist out of Occupy Wall Street. I became involved in organizing around indebtedness. I co-founded something called the , so it鈥檚 a union for debtors. We launched the first ever student debt strike in 2015. It鈥檚 a new...we鈥檙e trying to open a new avenue to tackle inequality financialization of Wall Street. And so, we鈥檝e won a billion dollars of debt relief for our members, but also doing the hard work of organizing. It鈥檚 like, why are democratic principles so hard to enact? So the film is also me thinking of that, the endless struggle and all the work that democratizing our society takes.
Am Johal 6:19
One of the things I really love about your work is this sort of relationship between philosophy and politics, but also a kind of philosophy that circulates in public and daily life, something that鈥檚 not sort of captured within the institution of the academy, and I鈥檓 just wondering how you were sort of drawn into bringing philosophy into public, through the medium of film.
Astra Taylor 6:45
Yeah, I mean, this is definitely 鈥� it鈥檚 just something I feel inclined to do! I mean, I鈥檝e made three films, they鈥檙e all about philosophical themes, and I think part of it is that I like movies that have intellectual themes. I think I'm someone who鈥檚 bored with what we, I鈥檓 bored with story as it鈥檚 traditionally conceived. It鈥檚 like 鈥淥h there has to be a character, and they have to grow, and there鈥檚 a resolution,鈥� and it鈥檚 like well no, it can be so much more! Like an abstraction can be a character. Why are we so...democracy is the star of the film, and it鈥檚 refracted through all of these, not just people but also through spaces and historical events. I mean, so part of me just wants more films like this to exist, so I guess I鈥檓 gonna have to make them (laughs) But the short answer to your first question 鈥� like why did I make this film 鈥� is actually that my mom suggested that I make it. And so in 2013, I got an email from my mother, Maria Taylor, and it said 鈥淵ou know, I鈥檝e been thinking, I think you should make a film about democracy. It ties everything that you鈥檙e doing together.鈥� And, you know, I was like, that鈥檚 a pretty good idea. And one thing she said, and it鈥檚 true 鈥� it鈥檚 in the film too 鈥� is that democracy always advances from the margins. It鈥檚 not something that, you know, evolves from the centre. But the thing about my mom being significant to your second question is that she鈥� so my mother went to an alternative school in Carcross, in the Yukon Territory, in the early 70s. It was a democratic school, and she brought this radical pedagogy that she had been exposed to into our house and raised us as radical unschoolers. So for me, learning was never limited by class times, it was never motivated by grades or sort of punishments, detention, so we were 鈥榰nschooled鈥�, which is this, you know, very idealistic, child-centred way of approaching learning and human development. And I think in my films, you see that spirit of, well, why do ideas have to be things that we study in the classroom, or why are they things that we think of as being sort of stuck in books? I mean, I love books! But ideas are also built into the environment that we live in, and they鈥檙e things that we don鈥檛 just think but we feel. We actually inhabit ideas and ideologies in this really profound way, and so I think that for me, that鈥檚 a residue of this upbringing, where learning was not contained in the way that it is in school. At the same time, I really love academic specialization. I鈥檓 sort of like, I picture myself as a kind of barnacle on the university, because I so...
Am Johal 9:33
We feel like that, too.
Astra Taylor 9:33
Exactly! I鈥檓 always here! I鈥檓 always like 鈥淗i, I have actually read your obscure articles and all of your books that you think nobody reads!鈥� And so, I鈥檓 trying to sort of celebrate it. So that鈥檚, you know, that鈥檚 sort of my position. But the film is also saying 鈥淗old on, it鈥檚 not just the scholars who are experts.鈥� Because in this film, you know, the film is very much engineered to also ask 鈥淲ell, who is an expert on democracy? Who is a philosopher? Who has wisdom about the way the world works? Who can actually see the power structures?鈥� And I鈥檓 100% convinced that people, you know, below 鈥� people who are not ensconced in a sort of bubble of privilege 鈥� have a much more astute political analysis, and that was definitely borne out by going around for a few months and interviewing random people on the street.
Maria Cecilia Saba 10:22
Yeah I like what you鈥檙e saying there. I鈥檓 curious to know how you feel that being brought up outside of the traditional schooling system, which can be very standardized and hierarchical, influenced your way of thinking about where knowledge comes from and how you relate to the world in general. I went to a traditional school, and I know how sometimes the top-down structures imposed by the traditional schooling system can feel like they limit the development of your own curiosity and independent critical thought. You also mentioned that your mom was a critical unschooler herself, so I wonder how being nurtured in this unschooling tradition helped the way you 鈥� shaped the way you 鈥� think about knowledge and philosophy.
Astra Taylor 11:11
I mean I think it really...there鈥檚 so much there actually. But at the heart of the unschooling ethos is trust: trust in the child. And so trust is not a limited commodity. It鈥檚 not something that the universe just has a certain amount of and we have to really meet it out in a stingy matter, right? It鈥檚 actually an infinitely 鈥� it鈥檚 not even renewable! 鈥� it just exists. And so, unschooling begins in this sort of radical trust in the child, and says 鈥淥kay, if human beings are naturally curious, let鈥檚 go with that.鈥� And I think there鈥檚 something...I think democracy, in the sense of people engaging in collective self-determination requires that. You have to trust your fellow citizens. You have to trust that they can rise to the occasion and make good decisions. And so that鈥檚 where I think that...and making this film was also an exercise in trust because I was like 鈥淥kay, instead of just going to people who are quote unquote brilliant鈥� or I could say 鈥淥h, I interviewed them because they鈥檙e important and the world recognizes that鈥�, I鈥檓 gonna spend some time just talking to regular human beings who haven鈥檛 made it their life鈥檚 work to become an expert in political philosophy or government or something that legitimizes their opinion or makes people take them seriously. So I think the trust thing is really part of it. And the second thing I鈥檒l say is that I feel the one very positive thing from unschooling too is that it鈥檚 all about curiosity. It鈥檚 not so much actually being an expert. The motor of it is the curiosity of the child versus the knowledge of the teacher, because there is no teacher! And for me that鈥檚 really shaped what I think an intellectual is, and this is why the title of a film has a question mark at the end, because A, I think we need to keep asking this question, what is democracy? But also because i think that the question signals curiosity, and we so de-value asking questions. We think of asking questions as you鈥檙e coming from a position of ignorance, not of knowledge, right? And for me, being an intellectual is about questioning, it鈥檚 about always wanting to learn. It鈥檚 about learning from other people, wanting to learn from a book, wanting to learn from a stranger you meet on the train. And so I think that the film is also, just in its form, in its title, is also making a case for a mode of philosophical, intellectual engagement that sort of de-emphasizes being the authority and the professor and emphasizes being someone who questions, who wants to engage with conversation with others, who wants to listen to what other people have to say. And you know, for me that鈥檚 an essential part of the film. It鈥檚 also saying, yeah, an intellectual endeavour is one about learning, and learning together.
Am Johal 14:21
And I really like the title of the film, because I think oftentimes when we use or say the word democracy in a kind of mainstream, normative sense, people are oftentimes thinking about elections or the state or government in this sense, and I think one of the things in posing it as a question and speaking with the people that you do in various ways is that, you know, democracy is this thing that maybe doesn鈥檛 exist all the time. Maybe it is an exception that only exists from time to time, and in fact it sometimes is antagonistic to the state! And you put that into the field of play in terms of when you are talking to people like Silvia Federici 鈥� like, there鈥檚 definitely...that can sometimes be out of, at least in the normative educational experiences, that鈥檚 a very different view of how we think about democracy oftentimes.
Astra Taylor 15:16
Yeah totally. I mean, I also like what you just said which like, you know, democracy only exists for these, maybe it鈥檚 something that has never existed or exists for these fleeting moments. So the companion book, which is coming out soon, is called Democracy May Not Exist, But We鈥檒l Miss It When It鈥檚 Gone, and I鈥檓 trying with that paradoxical title to say we鈥檝e never had a full democracy, which doesn鈥檛 mean things haven鈥檛 democratized, there can鈥檛 be progress, but for me it鈥檚 this, it is this perpetually elusive horizon because keep expanding our conception of what it could be, you know, and who could be included or what could be included. You know, it might...one day democracy might go beyond the human! Already there are these beautiful struggles that go back and are drawing from Indigenous philosophies, but about the rights of nature and giving personhood to lakes and rivers and ecosystems, and so I think we鈥檙e just at the beginning of the democracy thing, if we can survive as a species. But I think that, I mean, democracy absolutely can鈥檛 be limited to the state. To me, I鈥檓 just like how can you think that? But people do! And they think democracy is voting, and that鈥檚 such a tragic disfiguration of what democracy, you know, is and could be. And so the film acknowledges that, you know, there鈥檚 this sort of electoral moment in the beginning, you don鈥檛 see anyone voting or anything, but then it goes on to these other institutions or domains of life, so education, health care. It talks about the prison-industrial complex. It talks about the workplace. I mean, I think, you know, the challenge of this century, I think, is democratizing all of these other spheres of existence and above all, the economy, and that鈥檚 really where we need to go.
Am Johal 17:00
Yeah, and there鈥檚 other philosophers like who calls it sort of the 鈥榩antomime of state politics, the mode of voting鈥�, but on the other hand, there鈥檚 really important parts in the film that are also talking about the way that voting rights and those types of things, people...barriers being placed in front of people and these kinds of aspects. So in some sense, it鈥檚 something that functions outside of the state, but at the same time, you still...there鈥檚 a need to engage with the state and this kind of disenfranchisement that happens, which is used as a mode by populist leaders, be it Modi in India or Erdo臒an in Turkey or Brazil or the United States. And so, in some sense, the state is still in the field of play, even if there鈥檚 a critical orientation towards it.
Astra Taylor 17:50
Right, and I think that we can think all these things all at once. We can think, like, voting isn鈥檛 the sort of apex of democracy, and the film really goes there, because the film talks about the fact that there have been other democratic systems run by sortition or selection as opposed to elections, so like random, you know鈥� and I more and more, like actually, just would like to see 鈥� I think elections are so pathological in terms of, you know, who feels entitled to run for them, how much money they need to raise, the bandwagon effect of celebrity and especially in a social media era 鈥� so you know, I would actually, I鈥檓 almost ready to abolish elections myself!
Am Johal 18:31
That sounds authoritarian! (laughs)
Astra Taylor 18:34
I鈥檓 like, if you could vote for me, my platform would be 鈥榣iberty by lottery鈥� and none of this election crap. But I think, we have to think both. We have to think yeah, this isn鈥檛 the apex and yet there鈥檚 a reason that the powerful have tried to limit access to the ballot, and once people fought for it, have managed to weigh people鈥檚 votes differently and sort of create barriers, supposedly sort of racially neutral or class neutral barriers to entry. So I think, you know, I don鈥檛 know. I trust that we can, again, have that paradoxical mindset where we鈥檙e like critical of the sanctimony around elections and know that we need social power that鈥檚 outside of the state pushing, but we can also engage. Because the people need to use every lever of power to create change that we can. We can鈥檛 really afford to just like write one domain off.
Am Johal 19:35
When you were doing the interviews with the film, who were the people that sort of said something that you weren鈥檛 expecting, or took it in a direction that wasn鈥檛 pre-planned?
Astra Taylor 19:49
Yeah, I mean, I think, I was quite surprised, I mean in terms of who made it into the film, there鈥檚 an interview with a young man who I met at an abandoned airport outside of Athens, and this abandoned airport was being used as a refugee, camp for refugees, and he comes from Afghanistan, his name is Abeed. And he defined democracy as justice, and that surprised me because after months of going around interviewing people, I was so accustomed to people telling me that democracy was freedom, you know? And so, I was still heartbroken by the end of the film because nobody told me democracy was equality, which I think tells us a lot about our age. But his comment, I think, for things also, for someone like me who鈥檚 a sort of hardcore lefty 鈥� like, okay not even pretty 鈥� but you know, and is often inclined to sort of abolitionist perspectives in terms of criminal justice and things, you know, hearing someone who came from sort of a failed state who was, his perspective was 鈥� and he鈥檚 Hazara, which is an ethnic religious minority, and people wanted to kill him based on his background, for no other reason. And he really wanted there to be a state to protect him, to protect his life, and so for him, freedom was like the freedom of the majority to end his existence, right? And so, that was also, it鈥檚 like鈥� you have to 鈥� not you have to, but I have to 鈥� I think, what it taught me was that I have to listen to people of different experiences, and be reminded of the things that I take for granted, you know, sort of basic security. So that was a really interesting one.
Astra Taylor 21:32
There鈥檚 another鈥 did another set of interview with young Republican supporters of Donald Trump, and this is a bit of a longer answer, but what surprised me was that for many decades, since the sort of, especially since the fall of the Berlin Wall, we鈥檝e been told that democracy and capitalism go together. This is the sort of end of history thesis, right? Capitalism and democracy are synonymous, they鈥檙e in this happy marriage, they support each other. And what we鈥檙e seeing right now politically is a shift to the left, and I think many people are saying 鈥淗old on, capitalism鈥� 鈥� and I would agree with this 鈥� 鈥渃apitalism concentrates wealth and power and therefore is, you know, anathema in many ways to democracy.鈥� So we need an economic, egalitarian, socialist 鈥� call it what you like, but some system of economic fairness and sustainability that can make political equality possible. It hadn鈥檛 really occurred to me there鈥檚 a whole other subset of people who were going the opposite direction. So these kids were basically like 鈥淲e don鈥檛 care about democracy. We don鈥檛 care. We want to be on top,鈥� and so they were also letting go of that old story. And they were saying 鈥淲e prefer capitalism, even if that means that we have to hold onto power through very undemocratic means. We don鈥檛 鈥� actually, we know 鈥� we don鈥檛 like democracy, because that would mean people making welfare state demands on us.鈥� So that was interesting, you know, and a sign of a divergence that I think that's very different. So you mentioned in the introduction, the rise of authoritarian populism, and populism has 鈥� it鈥檚 not synonymous with democracy, but it has this 鈥榳e the people, we鈥檙e the majority, we鈥檙e beleaguered, we鈥檙e gonna take our country back through our authoritarian leader鈥� 鈥� but these people weren鈥檛 that, they weren鈥檛 populist. They were just good, old-fashioned, elitist, you know? Like, back to the aristocracy kind of attitude. And I think that doesn't get talked about enough at this moment, I think that鈥檚 a real tendency.
Am Johal 23:36
We just interviewed a few weeks ago Geoff Mann who鈥檚 a geography professor, who you probably know, and he鈥檚 got a book out with Verso, . And you know him and other people as well have been sort of talking about this worry about the climate emergency and the kind of responses 鈥� people like are calling for stronger role for the state, other people are talking about a people-powered movement, and people like Geoff are this, you know, he sort of draws out a quadrant of many scenarios that could play out, but the real worry of a kind of authoritarian approach to dealing with, you know, mass displacement of people and all of the things that come with these kinds of things, and I鈥檓 wondering did this kind of thing come up in the film?
Astra Taylor 24:23
Well, I think that that is what鈥檚 feeding this. So I 鈥� this is why I think we have to be very careful about our terms in this moment, and why I鈥檓, as I was writing the book and as I was making the film, I was thinking about how many books have been written populism right now. And there鈥檚 a tendency for liberals and the centre 鈥� I鈥檓 kind of wonking out, is this okay?
Am Johal 24:46
No, it鈥檚 totally great, it鈥檚 totally great! We just had last week who鈥檚 written a and he was talking about populism as a tactic, right? And it can be used by the left or the right in the same mode.
Astra Taylor 24:59
Yes, but I think that, I think we鈥檙e going to go into an authoritarian direction, in the sense that it鈥檚, just talking to these kids, if they figure out a rhetoric that doesn鈥檛 depend on democratic legitimacy, right? And so something like the climate crisis, and these numbers we鈥檙e seeing okay, a potential for, in a short span of time, for two billion people to be displaced. I hate that word, it sounds so kind of clinical, but we don鈥檛 really have 鈥� that鈥檚 going to enhance the sense of minoritarian, you know, being minoritarian, I don鈥檛 know what the word is, like freak out. So, and there was a lot of conversations with these young Republicans about refugees, outsiders, that sort of made me, gave me this sense that that鈥檚 the direction that things are going in. But what I was saying about the liberal-centre is there is this tendency to call anything you don鈥檛 like populism, right? So there in that sense, a supporter of Trump is the same as the supporter of Bernie Sanders. When a Democratic socialist who has a kind of pluralist, you know a pluralist politics and wants a kind of economic, social democratic welfare state, I mean, it鈥檚 just not the same thing as the sort of Tea Party politics that wants to diminish the state. So I don鈥檛 know, that word just kind of...that word is...I鈥檓 just really wondering how useful it is these days.
Am Johal 26:36
One of the things that comes up for me, you know, my genuine fear around these questions 鈥� and I had the same kind of feeling when I saw your film for the first time when it was here during VIFF 鈥� I鈥檝e lived in Haifa for a year, working with a Palestinian NGO and you see a context in which, you know, people vote, there鈥檚 a judicial system, there鈥檚 a free press, but there鈥檚 an increasing move towards the right or the use of state policies to kinda limit what would be normal practices. And you see it playing out in Brazil, you see it playing out in India, you see it playing out in Turkey, and so there鈥檚 almost a kind of template being created where certain features or gestures are available 鈥� you know, you can go vote, you can do these kinds of things that are seemingly part of a healthy, kind of, democratic environment 鈥� but the ground beneath our feet is kind of shifting in a particular way where in the States, the amount of money in elections or these types of distortions of the systems that are in place, and I don鈥檛 know if we have the arsenal to be able to deal with what鈥檚 happening in the way that people are being left off the voter roll and those types of things. Like, our capacity to articulate where the erosions happened.
Astra Taylor 27:50
I mean that I think that we have to talk about these things and give people a real explanation. I got into a debate with a man last night at the Q and A after the film. And he said 鈥淲ell you know, after all this, what do you say to those people who don鈥檛 vote?鈥� And I, my position was okay, but we can鈥檛 just be sanctimonious about it! We can鈥檛 just say 鈥淥kay, you have to vote鈥� and that鈥檚 it! We have to speak to their cynicism, to their frustrations, right? Because there are all these machinations that are happening, they鈥檙e not imagined, that are making it harder to cast a ballot or making...you know, there鈥檚 the , right, that came out of I think Princeton and Northwestern that essentially says 鈥淭he United States is an oligarchy and other people have literally no impact over policy.鈥� And so we have to talk to people about, we have to be honest and provide...the left has to provide an alternative explanation, and this is why there has to be an explanation. The right is providing an explanation, and the explanation is, it鈥檚 those outsiders coming in and taking what鈥檚 ours, right? If we could shut the door on them and get back to sort of our 鈥榠magined wholeness鈥�, everything would be great. Okay, our explanation has to be different! It鈥檚 鈥榥o, it鈥檚 actually the elites, billionaires, who are extracting and taking all this wealth that regular people produce, and there鈥檚 enough to go around! If we could just share what actually exists, there鈥檚 enough for everyone. Like 6 billionaires literally control the wealth that half of humanity has! That is just unbelievable. So I don鈥檛 know, I think we have to give explanations. I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 beyond people鈥檚 capacity to understand what鈥檚 happening, but just sort of telling people to proceed as normal and somehow, you know, we鈥檒l roll the clock back five years, that to me is the disaster approach, you know?
Am Johal 29:55
And I guess, one of the things is that if we can鈥檛 organize in this type of environment that we鈥檙e living in, when can we?
Astra Taylor 30:02
That鈥檚 interesting, yeah. People do tend to come up to me too and like 鈥淗ow do you have hope?鈥� and I鈥檓 like, read history! People have organized against a lot more challenging conditions than the one people in North America now find themselves in, you know? I don鈥檛 know, I mean, to me I鈥檓 just like...things are still in play. There鈥檚 a lot of democratic spirit right now, I don鈥檛 think people being discontented or cynical is always a bad thing, it鈥檚 about how we channel that and how we use that to deepen democracy and to imagine new ways of doing things. So I鈥檓 not at all hopeless, but there are things that scare me. (laughs)
Maria Cecilia Saba 30:44
I was wondering about the...going back a little bit about the discourses of populist regimes. I noticed that there鈥檚 always this discourse of fear, right, injecting fear into the population, and it always surprises me how far people, like, how many liberties people are willing to give up for the promise of protection, right? For example, I鈥檓 part Brazilian, my family lives in Sao Paulo, my father鈥檚 family. And a lot of them actually voted for , even though I cannot stand his discourse. He basically represents everything I hate, everything I cannot tolerate! And the rationale behind it was that the sense of insecurity in Brazil in general is so, everyone is so generally fearful of leaving their houses, that the promise of someone from the army coming in and saying that they鈥檙e gonna put things in order, and even toying with idea of going back to dictatorship 鈥� like, Brazil has already had a dictatorship in the 70s, no? A 20 year dictatorship at that. So it鈥檚 a fairly, newly recovered democracy, and at the sight of danger, street violence, and corruption scandals as well, but those are debatable as well, they鈥檙e willing to give the power back. So I guess my question is, how do you think that...if we need to trust each other, you know, in order to create a democratic knowledge, a democratic education, a democratic society in a way, how do we fight fear? How do we overcome fear?
Astra Taylor 32:49
Well, that鈥檚 a great question, it鈥檚 a question that鈥檚 foundational to political philosophy. I mean, when you said that Geoff [Mann]鈥檚 book is called Climate Leviathan, that goes back to . And the big question for Hobbes, who is like the father of , was...I mean, he was living in the English Civil War, and it鈥檚 not pretty, so he was like so what should people do? Well basically sacrifice liberty for security, and so his vision was you know, of all people basically saying 鈥淥kay, I give up my freedoms, I give up my rights to this , to this absolute state, you know, and in return, I just get to be safe.鈥� And I think that鈥檚 why I mentioned Abeed鈥檚 comments, because you have to empathize with that impulse when somebody鈥檚 life is on the line, right? And so I think that鈥檚 why it was important to have his voice in the film, to be like 鈥淥kay, let鈥檚 just be real here. Lots of people are experiencing things that the average Canadian viewer has never had to deal with.鈥� So...but then, what鈥檚 amazing is that trick still works! It鈥檚 not a trick, but the sort of offer from the state, like 鈥淥kay, give me your liberty, I鈥檒l give you security,鈥� you know, that was a very George W. Bush move after 9/11. So what is interesting to me though is the pockets that didn鈥檛 buy into that. So for example, I was in New York City on 9/11. New York City didn鈥檛 want to make that sacrifice, New York City was very much against the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. The people who were least fearful of immigrants tend to people who live in diverse communities with lots of immigration. So it seems like the antidote in some ways to these issues of fear is contact, first hand experience, breaking down these sort of mediated myths or this propaganda by encounter, because it turns out that when people live in communities with lots of immigration, they like it and they become pro-immigration! So I think that鈥檚 where the hope is, that鈥檚 where the trust comes from. It鈥檚 when people don鈥檛 have any real knowledge or experience that they are more open to this sort of demagogic manipulation.
Astra Taylor 35:10
I think the Brazil thing is really interesting too because it鈥檚 something, it鈥檚 like, the very wealthy...income inequality is so great there, but what happens is then you end up having to drive around in an armoured SUV that鈥檚 been imported from Iraq, actually! You know, there has to be a case made like no, security isn鈥檛 just physical safety. It鈥檚 also got this economic component, that if everyone has a floor underneath them, everyone鈥檚 basic needs are met 鈥� again, there鈥檚 enough to go around 鈥� then security is something everyone can have, not at the expense of another person and not at the expense of liberty, not at the expense of our freedoms, and that鈥檚 a case that leftists have been making for a long time, but we have to keep making it.
Am Johal 35:58
Astra, thank you so much for joining us. Wonderful speaking with you.
Astra Taylor 36:02
Thank you for having me!
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Rachel Wong 36:07
Thank you for listening to our conversation with Astra Taylor. If you want to learn more about the film and the book, you can follow the link in the episode description. Thanks again to Astra for sharing her time with us, thank you to our production team, and thanks to you for listening! We鈥檒l chat with you in two weeks on Below the Radar.
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